![]() |
![]() |
|
VHF: Canal 77 | ![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#1
|
||||
|
||||
![]() Hola cofrades
ante todo unas rondas.... ![]() ![]() ![]() ¿alguien me puede indicar como hacer unos lazys jacks? Me los quiero hacer yo porque los "veleros" no me entienden... ![]() Saludos |
#2
|
||||
|
||||
![]() yo les haria tipo los de los open 60 , con el soporte textil para la vela a la altura de la botavara, si no llevas lazy bag. De todas formas dependiendo el tamaño de la vela, tampoco pasa nada si la tiras a cubierta y luego la pliegas de empopada tranquilamente. osea si pasas de los lazy jacks.
Salut
__________________
![]() Es una verdad sincera Lo que nos dice esta frase: Que solo el ser que no nace No puede ser calavera. |
#3
|
||||
|
||||
![]() Son faciles de hacer yo tenía uno que venía con el barco y lo quite y me hice uno a mi gusto.
Lo primero que has de tener claro es si la lona de fondeo esta fija en la botavara, si es así montarías lo que se llama un lazzy-bag, el sistema es el mismo, simplemente varía que los cabos irían a unos terminales en la funda de la botavara. Respecto al sistema: A) Un cabo lo pasas por arriba de las crucetas, de este cabo como si fuera una pata de gallo, debe partir otro cabo por delante del mástil dirigido hasta una cornamusa a pie de palo o cerca de la anilla del spi. B) El cabo que has tirado por arriba de las crucetas lo llevas hasta la botavara y lo llevas a un punto fijo en la base de la botavara, o la funda. este punto fijo depende de la forma de tu mayor. D) Supongamos que este cabo lo has reenviado a un punto situado a 1/3 de proa de la botavara. E) En este cabo, tanto en el costado de babor como en el de estribor de la botavara, coses o anudas una anilla de acero, gaza o polea pequeña, aproximadamente a 1'5 o 2 metros de altura, dependiendo del barco, sobre el terminal que llevas a la botavara. F) Ahora llevas otro cabo desde, p.ejemplo, un punto situado aprox. a 1/3 de la parte de popa de la botavara, lo pasas por la anilla, gaza o polea y lo llevas hasta otro punto situado en medio de la botavara. Yo lo llevo de esta manera porque así este cabo tiene movilidad y no esta fijo, molesta menos si quieres navegar con el lazzy. G) Yo las comexiones a la bolsa de la botavara las llevo con unos ganchos de teflón, así en regatas desmonto el lazzy y lo llevó al palo en un momento. H) Sólo te falta medir el cabo de delante del palo para poder tensar el lazzy cuando lo recoges o aflojarlo en navegación. I) Funciona facilmente al tensar del cabo de delante del mastil tira de la pata de gallo que baja por las crucetas estas accionan el primer cabo unido a la botavara y tensa a su vez el cabo que pasa por la anilla o polea, respecto al punto de unión primero te repito que puede variar en función de tu vela mayor, también se pueden poner dos poleas atadas o remachadas a las crucetas o atornilladas, yo simplemente lo paso por arriba ya que tengo un barco de 8 metros y no necesito más. Suerte y lo siento si no te lo he podido explicar mejor. ![]() |
#4
|
||||
|
||||
![]() Cita:
4 puentes de inox a ambos lados de la botavara y +/- distribuidos. Se unen 2 a 2 con cabo de 6 mm y los dos puentes resultantes a su vez con otro mediante sendos ases de guía. A este, mediante otro as de guía, con un cabo que va al palo a una polea a la altura de la cruceta y de allí a una cornamusa en la base. Es más dificil explicarlo, que hacerlo. Todo eso vale 4 chavos y es superefectivo. Si tienes dudas, te enseño como lo tengo. Hay variantes a base de en vez de hacer puentes, disponerlos en cascada o mixtos (lo mejor). Si lo que quieres es un "bag", entonces la cosa se complica. El tinglado de los cabos es el mismo, pero en vez de ir a los puentes de la botavara, van al bag. Ahora bien, si lo que quieres es un bag,tienes que caer en manos de un "velero", que no entiendo como no te entienden lo que tu quieres hacerles entender... ![]() ![]() ![]() Te recomendaría a Mariano de Funmar (Masnou), sabe de que va y tiene precios normales: T.- 935402924. Hizo el mío y me "entendió" perfectamente a pesar de que yo habitualmente hable en un perfecto arameo ![]()
__________________
Buena proa! |
#5
|
||||
|
||||
![]() Cita:
Lo de pasar de ellos y plegar la mayor con toda ella en la cubierta, de empopada ... me da a mi que yendo solo puede ser motivo de mas de un polllo cuando sople el garbi tipico de las 5 de la tarde en verano en BCN... ![]() Saludos Editado por Keith11 en 30-01-2007 a las 14:25. |
#6
|
||||
|
||||
![]() Addebaran ...
me parece que si que lo he entendido... a ver que tal, me hare un croquis y tratare de diseñarlo sobre plano, mas que nada para acertar con las medidas, no quedarme corto cortando cabo, etc, etc Atnem... ...busco hacer un lazy jack no un lazy bag (no me gustan)... pero lo quiero de tal manera que se pueda retirar en navegacion. Para ello debo pensar en un sistema que me permita llevarlo al palo en navegacion. Los veleros no me entienden supongo que, entre otras cosas, porque el lazy jack sólo, sin bag, para ellos es un engorro. ... ademas quieren medir y aun no puede...y cuando les hablo de poleas en lo alto del palo y mordazas en la base me ponen cara de ![]() En cualquier caso gracias a ambos... aunque no descarto escaparme a tu puerto a ver como lo tienes tú, o incluso llamar a ese contacto a ver si quiere hacerlo él. ¿El cabo ("cuerda", que dice Bonden ![]() ![]() Saludos |
#7
|
||||
|
||||
![]() Cita:
Personalmente, para embarcaciones de menos de 9 metros (más o menos), los lacys me parecen innecesarios. Además, a mi me gusta, si no voy a salir en unos días, quitar las velas y guardarlas en la cabina. Un saludo,
__________________
Iñigo ![]() ![]() Cita:
|
#8
|
||||
|
||||
![]() Keith, la cosa esta en que si no quieres lazy bag, cosa qeu me suponia, la alternativa es poner unos puentes remachados en al botavara, una cosa bastante chunga segun mi opinion, lo otro es poner unos triangulos de tela a lado y lado de la mayor de manera que cuando el lazy trabaja, aparte el arraigo de esta tela es en medio de la botavara en la parte superior, osea queda bastante escaqueado. Eso que te decia mirate los open 60, de todas formas yo lo tuve puesto y ahora prefiero ir sin nada.
Salut
__________________
![]() Es una verdad sincera Lo que nos dice esta frase: Que solo el ser que no nace No puede ser calavera. |
#9
|
||||
|
||||
![]() Cita:
![]() Así que cuando cae toda la mayor con tres o cuatro cabos cortos la pliego de cualquier manera para que sea la cosa rápida y la voy atando en un plis plas, luego ya amarrado o fondeado pues los quito, la pliego bien y la pongo la funda. Estoy viendo el comprar un pulpo de botavara que sería todavía más rápido y limpio, sin cabos colgando por la botavara ![]() Tenía pensado hacer lo mismito que tú, montar solamente el lazy jack replegable al palo, pero realmente no me hace falta y paso de tener cabitos por ahí colgando. |
#10
|
||||
|
||||
![]() Durante años usé la configuración de este esquema y resultó bastante práctica:
![]() Espero que se entienda. Cuando quieres quitarlos sueltas de la base del palo y los recojes andando de popa a proa con ellos por la botavara hasta pasarlos por los aries de los rizos. Tensas un poco y listo. Piensa que si no los quitas antes de izar los sables suelen engancharse (Murphy) y si los sueltas hay mayor por todo ![]() ![]() ![]() |
#11
|
||||
|
||||
![]() Cita:
![]() |
#12
|
||||
|
||||
![]() Cita:
![]() ![]() ![]() Lo de que se enganchen los sables pasa con todos los lazys... es la jodienda que tienen, pero una mayor de 35 m2 no me veo capaz de plegarla como dice Iñigo... Ademas...a puerto se entra como los gentlemen ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Los siguientes cofrades agradecieron este mensaje a Keith11 | ||
maka (04-08-2010) |
#13
|
||||
|
||||
![]() Cita:
He intentado manadarte un croquis pero me dice que excede de la capacidad, seguramente estaré haciendo algo mal. Respecto al diametro con cabo de 4mm. tendrías bastante. Partiendo del croquis de buxeta, la forma del lazzy depende de cada mayor, por eso ten en cuenta que viendo una vela plegada, tienes en el tercio de proa de la botavara, aproximadamente donde queda el sable superior y el segundo, una vez plegada la vela, una "joroba" ahí tiene que recogerse por uno de los cabos la parte delantera de la vela, despues la parte central de la vela hasta el segundo rizo contando desde arriba se recogería por el segundo punto de apoyo del lazzy aproximadamente a mitad de botavara y el último punto llegaría aproximadamente donde quedaría el segundo o entre el segundo y el primer rizo una vez plegada la vela. Por eso no te puedo decir los metros de cabo y la forma exacta porque deberás instalarlo en función de tu mayor. Yo pongo al pie del palo una goma elástica y allí sujeto los ganchos de los terminales del lazzy y no molestan para nada, obviamente lo desmonto una vez sacada la vela y los pongo con la vela puesta antes de bajarla, así no se enreda con nada. Suerte ![]() |
#14
|
||||
|
||||
![]() Mainsail tamers
Take the pain out of the main, make your own lazy-jacks by Guy Stevens ![]() Not always better The off-the-shelf systems are not necessarily better designs. Most off-the-shelf systems use blocks at their segment junction points. When stowed, these blocks may bang on the mast. Correcting this situation requires the installation of hooks on the mast or boom and sections of shock cord to pull the support segment away from the mast. The need for blocks at the segment junctions is questionable, and they are more costly than thimbles. Some systems use shock cords to support the leg segments of the lazy-jacks. However, the shock cord provides too much stretch, and the sail may fall out of the lazy-jacks. Most of these systems use a plastic clip-on fitting to secure the lazy-jacks to the boom and mast. This plastic deteriorates in sunlight and often fails within a season or two. Four choices he line you select should match your splicing abilities and rig construction. There are four types to choose from: three-strand nylon; three-strand Dacron, standard double yacht braid, and more exotic fibers, such as Sta-Set X or Spectra line. Lazy-jacks made of three-strand nylon for the average boat can be assembled for about $91. The same lazy-jacks in Sta-Set would cost about $160. Don't let cost be the only deciding factor; each line has advantages and disadvantages. Three-strand nylon is simple to splice, requiring no tools and little knowledge. It's inexpensive and available from most chandlers for 13 cents a foot or less for 1/4-inch diameter. However it is stretchy, so it is not as well-suited for high-aspect-ratio rigs where the stretch could allow the sail to fall off of the top of the boom. It's susceptible to chafing where it contacts other lines, and it may cause twisting when deploying the lazy-jacks, necessitating the untwisting of the support lines. While this is the cheapest line, with the most disadvantages, it served well on my 39-foot racer/ cruiser for more than five years, until recent replacement with double yacht braid. I've constructed a number of lazy-jack systems using three-strand nylon for people who wanted to spend as little as possible on the initial trial of the lazy-jack system. Each system I created with three-strand nylon has occasionally required some intervention to untwist the support lines. Using this line, you could first build a three-legged system, expand to a four-legged system, or experiment with other aspects. As it is the least expensive material, making radical changes in lazy-jack rigging rarely involves more than a $30 expense. Less stretch Three-strand Dacron is as easy to work with as three-strand nylon. It is less expensive than yacht braid or exotic fibers and has significantly less stretch than nylon: 4.2 percent compared to 16 percent when loaded to 15 percent of breaking strength. This makes lazy-jack deployment and tensioning easier. It has less tendency to twist than nylon, lasts longer, and is significantly less prone to chafe. It is also 10 to 20 percent stronger than the same-sized nylon. It looks great on traditionally rigged vessels on which the rest of the rigging is three-strand and costs about 18 cents a foot. A system constructed with three-strand Dacron for an average boat costs about $106. Chafe on the mast is an issue because of noise and wear. Excessive chafe With the exception of a turning block for the support segment, blocks are not well suited to use in lazy-jacks; they cause excessive chafe on the sail and bang on any surface they contact. They also add unnecessary expense to the installation. They're prone to jamming when deploying the lazy-jacks and to sunlight damage to their sheaves. Blocks are meant to make adjusting a line under load easier, but in deploying your lazy-jacks there shouldn't be any load. The weight of the sail is placed on the lazy-jacks after they have been deployed and adjusted. There are three types of thimbles available. These are used for the inserts that go into the eye splices to reduce the chafe and friction where the segments of the lazy-jacks meet. Galvanized steel thimbles are really cheap, but they rust quickly and make a mess of the sails, mast, and anything else they contact. Nylon thimbles are cheaper than stainless steel, are a nice white color, and won't remove the surface coating of the mast should they come into contact with it. However, they do chafe more easily and are subject to degradation in sunlight, often being the first part of a lazy-jack system to fail. Stainless-steel thimbles last longer than nylon thimbles and have the least friction. If allowed to bang on the mast, they make a racket and remove the surface coating. I use them only when I'm certain they're not going to contact the mast. They will outlast the rest of the lazy-jack system and probably even the boat itself. Mounting control lines on the mast also makes it possible to mount the support segment blocks 6 to 8 inches out on the spreaders. This prevents banging on the mast. Mounting the support segment blocks on the spreaders works best on the upper spreader of double-spreader rigs. If your boat has a single-spreader rig, or if you are mounting to the lower spreader, three-strand nylon may stretch too much and let the sail fall off of the boom. In these cases, the easiest solution is to use a stiffer line. For free-standing rigs, a general rule for the placement of the support segment blocks is: the higher the better. About 70 to 75 percent of the height of the mast off the deck provides a good angle. If the support segment blocks are too low, the tension is more forward than upward. In this situation, the sail pushes the lazy-jacks out of the way and falls off of the boom when it is lowered. The first step in the installation is cutting the lines for the support segments. If you're installing lazy-jacks on a double-spreader rig and are able to use the spreaders as a mount for the support segment, measure the height of the second set of spreaders to the deck. Double this measurement and add 3 feet for splicing room. You will need to cut two lines this length for the support segments, one for each side of the mast. If you are unable to use the spreaders as a mount for the support segments, you will want to mount the support segment blocks about 70 percent of the way up the mast. Measure this spot on the mast by using a long tape and a halyard. Make sure the area is clear of other fittings and there is sufficient room to mount the cheek blocks. If you're mounting the support segment blocks to the bottom of the spreaders, position them about 8 inches from the base of the spreaders at the mast. Double-check the location. If there are spreader lights, they must be far enough away that the line for the support segments will not chafe on them. Make sure the drill does not hit the spreader-light wiring. Stainless steel thimbles have low friction and long life. Keep them from chafing by mounting the support segment turning blocks on the spreaders. Small dimple Once you are certain there are no obstacles, use a center punch to make a small dimple as the mark for the first hole. Drill the hole, using a little light oil on the bit. Then lightly oil the tap and tap the hole, being careful to start and keep the tap perpendicular to the bottom of the spreader. With each turn you should turn the tap back a quarter of a turn. This helps to avoid breaking the tap off in the hole because it clears the chips from the tap. When the hole is tapped, spread some Ultra Tef-Gel or anti-seize on the screw, and screw one end of the eye strap into place just barely tight. Use the other end hole as a guide. Center punch on this mark, drill, and tap it as before. But before inserting the screw, slide the block onto the eye strap. String one of the two support-segment lines thorough the block, one end on each side of the lower spreader. If you are mounting the support-segment cheek blocks to the mast, the procedure is much the same, except you are going to measure up to the position you determined earlier and mark in the middle of the side of the mast. Using the cheek block for a pattern, drill and tap each hole. Exercise caution while drilling in the mast; go slowly so as not to over-drill and damage wire or lines in the mast. Thread the support-segment lines through the blocks, keeping one end on each side of the spreaders below you (if any). Next, mount the cleats on the mast. They should be about level with the end of the boom, on the side of the mast. Make sure they are not going to interfere with other control lines on the mast. If they do interfere, moving the cleats up or down several inches might solve the problem. If the area on the mast is too cluttered, you can mount them about a foot or so aft on the boom, making sure you lead the support-segment control lines aft of any spreaders to avoid chafe and noise. I've found that moving the bottom of the cleat slightly toward the bow of the boat makes cleating the support segments a lot easier than an absolutely vertical cleat. Here are some good starting points for placement, but they are only starting points; 20 minutes of testing will make sure that the lazy-jacks are dialed in perfectly for your boat. Measure 25 percent of the length of the foot of the sail, back from the gooseneck on the boom. Mark this position on the bottom of the boom. Repeat at 60 and 85 percent of the length of the foot of the sail, and mark the bottom of the boom for these points. These will be the starting position for the legs on a three-legged system. Both the forward leg segment and the single line that makes up the middle and aft segments should initially be 2.5 times the length of the boom. The forward leg segment passes under the boom at the mark closest to the mast and is hoisted by the eyes spliced in the support segments. It, in turn, supports the after and center leg sections in a three-legged system. The luff of the sail is held to the mast by the sail slides, so when adjusting the forward leg segment keep in mind that it should attach to the boom at about the most forward point where the sail first starts to fall off of the boom. About 25 percent of the sail's foot length aft of the mast is a good starting point. Too far forward, and the leg provides no support for the center section of the sail; too far aft, and the top of the sail tends to fall off the boom. Through thimbles The aft and center leg sections in a three-legged system make a loop. They are supported by the forward leg segments where they pass through the thimbles spliced to the ends of the forward segment. The center leg segment supports the large belly of the sail so that the sail does not spill off the boom. Slight adjustments of the center segment fore and aft can have large results. The aft leg attachment point is generally the first place to start adjusting the system. If the sail falls out the end of the lazy-jacks, you will need to move it aft; if the center section needs more support, try moving it forward to add some support to the center section. When you are roughing in the system and testing it, attach the middle of one of these lines to the aftmost mark on the bottom of the boom, using a constrictor knot or some good tape wrapped a couple of times around the boom. Lead the ends forward to the center mark on the boom. Tie them together making a loop out of this line. Secure it to the boom with a constrictor knot or tape. You can use a loose bowline in place of all of the thimbles while testing. On sails that have slides on the foot, it is often possible to use these slides as mounts for the leg segments of the lazy-jacks. This does, however, limit the options for placement, and does not function well in all cases. It also means that you will have to remove the leg segments from the boom to remove the sail. Attached to boom Now you have a roughed in lazy-jack system. The legs should be attached to the boom well enough that you can hoist and drop the sail into them. Hoist the sail on a calm day, drop it into the lazy-jacks, and adjust until the sail stays stacked on top of the boom. Should you have a boom over 16 feet long and the sail falls out of the middle no matter what adjustments you make, you may need a four-legged system. A simple addition to the system you already are working on makes the transformation an easy one. Instead of the forward leg supporting the center and aft leg loop, as it does in a three-legged system, it is going to become a loop just like the one between the two aft segments. Connecting the two loops are two pieces of line, each about half the length of the boom, one on each side, that are supported by the support segment. Good starting positions for the boom attachment points on a four-legged system are at about 24 percent, 45 percent, 55 percent, and 84 percent of the boom length, measured aft from the gooseneck. Anti-seize compound Mount the eye straps that hold the leg segments, with the holes fore and aft, using machine screws drilled and tapped into the bottom of the boom. Remember to put the lines through them before attaching the second screw. Some riggers use pop rivets for these attachments, however I have not found them to hold up as well as properly tapped screws coated with anti-seize compound. Tie a small knot on each side of the center of the leg segments under the boom to prevent having to readjust the system periodically. Alternately, a couple of stitches through the line and around each of the eye straps looks neater and serves the same function. Splice thimbles into all of the segments where there are bowlines. Make sure that you place the line going through the thimble in the thimble to be spliced before making each of the splices. Using the system is straightforward: simply ease the support segment halyards on the mast, remove the leg segments from the cleat bottoms, and tension the support segment halyards. The lazy-jacks are ready for use. Deploying the lazy-jacks allows you to drop the mainsail any time the wind is on or forward of the beam. I have used them when picking up a mooring and when sliding into a slip under sail. Simply let the mainsheet out and drop the sail. Pull the mainsheet back in when the sail falls into the lazy-jacks and you have quickly de-powered without having to head into the wind. If your sail should hang on the track and refuse to allow the sail to drop easily, check for bent sail slides, and lubricate the track and slides with a dry Teflon lubricant. se siente por el austro-hungaro, pero ...you know.... no hay webos para traducir to eso
__________________
..la lontananza sai
é come il vento che fa dimenticare chi non s'ama.. spegne i fuochi piccoli, ma accende quelli grandi Editado por malamar en 30-01-2007 a las 18:08. |
#15
|
||||
|
||||
![]() ![]() Prometo leerme el tocho ![]() ![]() Saludos ![]() Editado por Keith11 en 30-01-2007 a las 18:52. |
#16
|
||||
|
||||
![]() Yo llevo un sistema parecido al de Butxeta desde hace mucho tiempo.
Más simple imposible, se recoge en un momento y se pone en un momento. Hice un pdf y lo colgué en su día... (no sé si lo encontraré). Y por cuatro duros. Si hace falta ya te explicaré. Salut. |
#17
|
||||
|
||||
![]() Yo estuve estudiando el hacerme uno y más o menos llegué a los mismos esquemas expuestos, pero con una pequeña diferencia: hacerlo con cabo elástico y anclarlo/desanclarlo a la botavara con pequeños mosquetones de aluminio....
Lo lanzo como idea porque no he llegado a hacerlo todavía y no se que tal funcionará... |
#18
|
||||
|
||||
![]() Cita:
Saludos ![]() |
#19
|
||||
|
||||
![]() Pero si por lo menos ya lo he colgado tres veces en los últimos X años.
Es justo eso, un docuimento en el que había una explicación acompañada de fotos numeradas y un dibujillo muy chapucero... Bueno. Ya lo rebuscaré y si no le hago nuevas fotos... ![]() |
#20
|
||||
|
||||
![]() Malamar, 'por favor traduce al espanglis.
Thanks. Salu2
__________________
Quien dijo miedo cuando estabamos tos cagaos ![]() |
#21
|
||||
|
||||
![]() Rom:
Creo que este era tu manual. ![]() Y si no, pues es uno que bajé hace un año de aquí. Venga unas rondas mañaneras para todos
__________________
Un saludo: Javier |
#22
|
||||
|
||||
![]() Pos no ha querido subir.
![]() Lo intento de nuevo ![]() Vale, no puedo porque supera el máximo Si alguien lo quiere se lo paso por privado. ![]() ![]()
__________________
Un saludo: Javier |
#23
|
||||
|
||||
![]() Axterix, ese tocho lo reduje a justo los 15.ooo caracteres que es el maximo que este soft deja subir de una vez. Sinceramente y sintiendolo muchisimo, mis facultades actuales de mecanografiado (deos ruros e imprecisos) no me permiten meterme en ese jardin de traducirlo
Sorry, mais ma vie, elle en voit ,...des chagrins ![]()
__________________
..la lontananza sai
é come il vento che fa dimenticare chi non s'ama.. spegne i fuochi piccoli, ma accende quelli grandi Editado por malamar en 31-01-2007 a las 10:27. |
Los siguientes cofrades agradecieron este mensaje a malamar | ||
facc (13-07-2009) |
#24
|
||||
|
||||
![]() Me presento ya que me acabo de registrar. Hoy por fin he tenido la paciencia que necesitaba.
Si es por rondas que no quede, ahora invito yo. Necesito el pdf que se publicó (como he leído, en mas de una ocasión se colgó) para hacer un Lazzy Jack (no se si con back o sin), me gustaría ver el croquis.? Alguien que lo tenga "a mano" ? Gracias de antemano. PirataDues |
#25
|
||||
|
||||
![]() Y ese croquis????
|
![]() |
Ver todos los foros en uno |
Herramientas | |
Estilo | |
|
|
![]() |
||||
Discusión | Iniciada por | Foro | Respuestas | Último mensaje |
Hilo para hacer sociales y ser agradable | navegantesail | Foro Náutico Deportivo | 167 | 29-11-2006 22:35 |
Barco ardiente. (Hilo Colt cabrera) | willy_coyote | Foro Náutico Deportivo | 0 | 11-11-2006 18:00 |