Veleros pequeños

[morfeo]

Originalmente publicado por neovlad

Buenos días a todos y un asiático para la parroquia de mi parte para empezar el día.

Os voy a proponer un reto, que a la postre me servirá de guía para mi búsqueda.

He leído con especial interés este hilo y me encanta el espíritu de los armadores de grandes sueños encajados en pequeña eslora. Pero es tan vasta la información aquí contenida que se lo que quiero pero no su nombre.

Atención pregunta:

A 25 ptas la respuesta, barcos que cumplan las siguientes premisas.

- De eslora menor de 8m
- Con quilla abatible o retráctil
- Cocina lateral corrida, no esquinada ni dividida
- Con dinette lateral convertible en cama
- Con wc químico pero en espacio separado y con intimidad
- Sin grifos de fondo
- Con fueraborda
- Con la mayor altura interior posible

Por lo que he visto hay varios que cumplen varias de las premisas pero no he encontrado ninguno que las cumpla todas. Como veis son conceptos muy enfocados al bajo mantenimiento y libertad de movimiento.

Un saludo...y que los juegos del conocimiento comiencen!!

Creo que lo que buscas es un Sarch 675, encaja a la perfección con lo que deseas.

Puede que no la altura pero en esa eslora si no quieres demasiada obra muerta....

Por lo demás es un barco que te hacen a tu gusto.

[morfeo]

Os dejo la página para algunas fotos.

https://m.facebook.com/sarchcomposites/

[morfeo]

La caja de orza esta justo detrás del mamparo del baño.

No creo que se indutrialicen, por ahora no parece su idea.

Y si lo comparas, algo que no creo que se deba hacer, con un first 25 que creo que es lo mas cercano de lo que manejamos por aquí, el Sarch sale ganando.

[Pititis]

Entonces la habilitación se puede cambiar?

Unas rondas

Enviado desde mi SM-J320FN mediante Tapatalk

[markuay]

¿8 personas en un 20 pies es una locura?

Es incomodo para navegar, puede que hasta peligroso, y no digamos ya para dormir.

8 personas pesan mas que el lastre del barco.

Lo ideal es que naveguen una o dos personas.

Yo vi entrar a 15 personas en un 600, pero luego hay que moverse por la bañera.

http://www.elsol.com.ar/nota/75506

En fin, es una opinion personal.

[X TUTATIS]

Yo en un 20 pies o <6m opino que no es una locura.

Es una patera !!!!

Simple y llanamente no es viable.
Subir pueden subir pero como dice Markuay, no podrás moverte.

Mi bañera es de 2.20m y fuimos 6 solo a motor para ver fuegos artificiales y menos mal que no había que virar ni maniobrar porque el suelo de la bañera estaba lleno de pies (12), y era casi imposible no pisar alguno.

Dependiendo de bañera.
Pequeña. 2 bien 3 muy organizados
Mediana. 3 bien 4 organizados
Grande 4 organizados

Hablo de bañeras de veleros 6 m a 7

[Bilbao Pilot]

Yo en el mio 1 o dos personas,mas incomoda...

[Witget]

El tarsis 20 es precioso!!! Que vale nuevo? Por curiosidad

Enviado desde mi K010 mediante Tapatalk

[Witget]

Yo tengo un arcoa sherif y la verdad es q muy contento. Es viejete pero no lo parece. Ademas la bañera es super amplia y el hueco de proa esta mas que bien para dos personas pasar un finde

Enviado desde mi K010 mediante Tapatalk

[salton]

Hola witget.me podrias decir que tal es navegando el arcoa seriff.y si tienes alguna comparacion ya seria lo.mas.muchas gracias.

[arnaloma]

En el Mariner 24 para navegar 3/4 perfecto, mejor 3 que 4, pero se cabe sin problemas y no se estorba.

En fondeo hemos llegado a estar 7 y comiendo. Organizados bien pero no pueden estar todos juntos en bañera.

Para comer dentro hasta 6 y en pernocta no más de 4.

[Galar]

¿Y qué me decis de Yarmouth 22 o el Yarmouth 23?
Yo vendo un Yarmouth 23 en Getxo por 22.000€.

http://www.cosasdebarcos.com/barco_7...048564557.html

Desde mi punto de vista es un barcazo.
Hicimos 200 millas sin tocar tierra hacia el Norte (Donosti-Les Sables D'Olonne) y otras 200 de vuelta (La Rochelle-Lekeitio) el año pasado a dos. Categ de navegación B para 6. Y co bandera francesa teniendo balsa y radio-DSC está despachado para lo que quiereas/puedas. Al estra por debajo de 7 metros no necesitas titulación en Francia.

Lo vendo por cambio en mi plan de navegación

[neovlad]

Qué bonito ese Yarmouth, desde luego que es un barco para pensar a lo grande.

Pues bien, dando muchas vueltas al asunto creo que mi plan de abordaje (del tema) será el siguiente:

- Empezar por un barco < de 6m de segunda mano para no pagar ITB, poder manejarlo sin titulación y entrar en el mundillo cabinado sin mayores solicitudes ni problemas, eso si, orza abatible, que pueda subirlo al remolque desde rampa o por lo menos que no tenga que tenerlo si o si en el agua. Había pensado en un Polikea Stream, no se qué tal será en navegación.

- Y si me gusta y en unos años veo que necesito más cambiaré a un puma 23 o lo que surja (como en el amor), jajaja.

Mi idea básica es hacer algunas navegaciones con mi mujer e hijos (4 de entre 7 y 2 años) por lo que la capacidad del barco por ahora creo que no será problema, eso si, con una gran bañera para verano que en invierno dudo que nadie me acompañe...

Desde luego que da gusto leer este hilo porque no se ve ni un sólo comentario negativo, los que tienen barco pequeño lo disfrutan, los que lo tuvieron lo ensalzan con nostalgia y cariño y los que queremos tenerlo...pues nos mordemos las uñas y esperamos el día que el viento sea favorable para largar anclas!!

[Bilbao Pilot]

Originalmente publicado por Galar

¿Y qué me decis de Yarmouth 22 o el Yarmouth 23?
Yo vendo un Yarmouth 23 en Getxo por 22.000€.

http://www.cosasdebarcos.com/barco_7...048564557.html

Desde mi punto de vista es un barcazo.
Hicimos 200 millas sin tocar tierra hacia el Norte (Donosti-Les Sables D'Olonne) y otras 2000 de vuelta (La Rochelle-Lekeitio) el año pasado a dos. Categ de navegación B para 6. Y co bandera francesa teniendo balsa y radio-DSC está despachado para lo que quiereas/puedas. Al estra por debajo de 7 metros no necesitas titulación en Francia.

Lo vendo por cambio en mi plan de navegación

parece mentira que no lo vendas,me parece una preciosidad,que pena ser pobre jeje

[Kane]

Creo que no ha sido mencionado en este hilo. ¿Hay alguien a quien pueda gustarle comentar sobre el CNSO Samourai, también distribuido por Sumplast con el Gheisa, Karate y otros? Aunque mayoritariamente en Francia.

[Galar]

Originalmente publicado por Bilbao Pilot

parece mentira que no lo vendas,me parece una preciosidad,que pena ser pobre jeje

Pues si, a mi tambien me extraña pero se ve que hay mas preferencia por veleros modernos. Si supieran el grosor de casco y lo bien construidos que estan! Y aguanta castañas a tope.
Lo disfruto mucho mientras tanto
Vamos a intentar subir hacia el N de Francia este verano de nuevo. A ver que tal!

[morfeo]

Gracias, muy interesante el blog

[tradixabia]

La elección del tipo de vela del barco de Howard Rice, es por alguna razón porlo que lo prefiere al tipo de vela que se utiliza habitualmente en la actualidad?
Presenta alguna ventaja, o es por estética?

Saludos y buen viento.

[morfeo]

Según el blog, es la elegida por el tipo de navegación y condiciones de mar que espera encontrar en tierra de fuego.
Sencilla, con múltiples combinacionales.
Hay una entrada que lo explica.
Saludos

[tradixabia]

Originalmente publicado por morfeo

Según el blog, es la elegida por el tipo de navegación y condiciones de mar que espera encontrar en tierra de fuego.
Sencilla, con múltiples combinacionales.
Hay una entrada que lo explica.
Saludos

La entrada que mencionas, ¿recuerdas cual era?
No pensaba que era un aparejo sencillo, por lo que resulta interesante.
Saludos

[morfeo]

No he podido hacer un enlace.
Saludos

A Rig For Southern Cross
By Southern Cross Designer- John Welsford (aka- The Pesky Kiwi Pun King)

Genesis
“Howard and I collaborated on a different rig for his SCAMP, one specifically designed for the environment in which he will be using it. After much thought he settled on a split rig utilizing a gaff main and I drew it from his base design. Howard has a strong like of a gaff rigged main from experience and suggested the value of the split rig for a number of sensible reasons. His innovation of the running shrouds (not back stays) is a key element to the safety aspect of the rig.

So why not use the lug rig that moves SCAMP so well in her normal waters?
Lets have a look at that.

With that single large sail SCAMP won't heave to in the conventional sense, they “Park” (Howard coined that apt phrase). That’s broadside on, and they will sit there happily as long as you want, not going anywhere. SCAMP's are safe “parked” in waves up to about a meters and a half high. That’s close to five feet. Big wave for a little boat and very few small boats will ever be out on the water in those conditions.

Where Howard is going there can be waves up to ten times that high. ( that’s on a good day) The boat has to be able to sit hove to head to wind and, the single big sail wont do that.

Sail Reduction-
We normally put three lines of reefing points onto a SCAMP sail, if the wind is such that there is still too much sail up when on the last reef, its pull the sail right down and sit in the bottom of the boat to wait out the squall. But where Southern Cross is going ,control in sustained extremely high winds is imperative and the single big sail doesn’t give the choices in sail reduction that are needed. IN addition hoisting and striking the single lug sail in extreme or gusty conditions could prove problematic for Howard.

Damage-
With one big sail the loads on that sail and its systems are high, SCAMP has extraordinary stability for a small boat but the loads on the rig are higher than you’d expect. Any failure leaves the boat drifting with little chance of improvising a jury rig, and Southern Cross is going where no small boat has ever been before ( I tried to work a Star Trek quote in there but that has to be near enough), and there is no chance of support or repair, so there has to be a lot of redundancy in the setup. The ability to create a rig out of the wreckage should she be rolled and dismasted is beyond important, it may be the only answer in a life or death scenario.

So with all of this and a few other criteria in mind I set out to draw the rig that Howard called for and that would be ‘fit for purpose”.

The gaff yawl is a powerful rig-
It is not particularly close winded but it generates a lot of drive for a given heeling force. In simple terms, that’s more drive for the amount of stability that the boat has. In heavy weather few boats will sail close to the wind anyway, and small boats more so than big ones so I drew a rig that would produce the most thrust at the wind angle that will be practical in those conditions.

A gaff mainsail means a relatively short mast, strong, easy to manage should it need to be pulled out for work, with low windage and light in weight.

With three sails, reef points on the main and the ability to change jibs there are many different combinations available. Dropping the mizzen and main for example will work when reaching or running before a squall, the small jib being easy to control at any angle to the wind.

When sailing across or upwind the main can be reefed, reefed several times until its time to drop it completely, and with jib and mizzen the boat is still balanced, easy to control and able to heave to if needed.

The Mizzen Sail
In spite of what some write about mizzens that little sail is really useful, it enables the boat to be hove to head to wind, can be used to manage the weather helm enabling the boat to self steer, a huge help on long days, and remember, summertime in the deep south means that there can be daylight for 20 hours. The ability to let the boat sail herself is a real help to the singlehanded skipper wanting to rest, navigate, eat or make repairs under way.

With the jib on a roller furler, that sail can be “disappeared” when needed (down and all the way back into the cockpit until needed), and a bigger drifter set flying, all without leaving the safety of the cockpit. There are days of calm weather in the region and Howard’s strategy is to sail as quickly as possible to take advantage of these breaks. Southern Cross can set a lot of sail in those conditions.

Staying-
Now here’s where one of the big differences appear. The mainmast is not stayed in the normal sense, in fact it does not need stays at all. When capsized, or overpowered running off downwind, the mainsail can be pinned against the stays, in the former case that makes it very difficult to manage when righting as it will try and drive the boat forward or capsize her again as it comes up. In conventional boats its necessary to swim the boat around head to wind to prevent this, but in these cold waters, and in the sort of conditions that might capsize this little ship that’s not a good thing. Should Howard capsize and chances are he may and more than once time will be of the essence. He has to my knowledge tested and learned from some 60 SCAMP capsizes both solo and with crew in teaching and demonstrations. Howard was also a key player in the initial capsize tests conducted on the prototype SCAMP #1. He knows the boat both upright, turtled and on her side likely better than anyone else. He and I have had the opportunity to really understand the mechanics of avoiding capsize and how to execute fast righting and re-entry should it happen.

With the free standing mast, the sail can swing downwind wherever the boat lies relative to the wind and with the main luffed, the mizzen and job sheets free, she will lie quietly.

Going downwind in a heavy squall can be dangerous, and believe me this area is prone to them, walls of spray hundreds of metres high, appearing out of nowhere, coming at you at 60 knots is not uncommon!

The ability to let the main “flag” forward is a real help, round the boat up to about 45 deg off dead downwind, let the running shroud on that side go and dump the mainsheet then point her back downwind again and the main will swing around fully depowered off the bow.

With the jib rolled up or fully struck and the mizzen also swung around its unstayed mast the boat is unpowered, just being pushed along at a controlled rate by the windage of her hull and spars, but is still able to be brought under sail in an instant to clear a lee shore or sail into a confined space.

The mainmast is supported by a running shroud on each side. It’s strong enough to stand unstayed, but the inevitable flex affects the luff tension on the jib, so she has the “running shrouds” there to control that. An aditional benefit of those is to facilitate a jury rig should that be needed.

Damage Again
In case of a broken mast, the main boom is long enough to make a replacement, the mizzen mast is long enough and with the jib, and the running shrouds to hold it up its tall enough to allow the reefed main with its gaff to be set as a loose footed lugsail which will power the boat sufficiently to make some progress.

Again, sailing along the Pacific coast south of the Straights of Magellan is extreme sailing and plain risky, there is little or no chance of assistance should anything go wrong. The skipper has to be able to fix, or rejig the rig in case of breakage minor or major so the rig which Howard has developed has much redundancy built in. I was honoured to have him send me his version of the rig asking that I examine it, refine it and finalize it. We can’t plan for every eventuality, but have done our best to anticipate what the brave little ship will meet, and are confident in her abilities.

[tradixabia]

Gracias

Originalmente publicado por morfeo

No he podido hacer un enlace.
Saludos

A Rig For Southern Cross
By Southern Cross Designer- John Welsford (aka- The Pesky Kiwi Pun King)

Genesis
“Howard and I collaborated on a different rig for his SCAMP, one specifically designed for the environment in which he will be using it. After much thought he settled on a split rig utilizing a gaff main and I drew it from his base design. Howard has a strong like of a gaff rigged main from experience and suggested the value of the split rig for a number of sensible reasons. His innovation of the running shrouds (not back stays) is a key element to the safety aspect of the rig.

So why not use the lug rig that moves SCAMP so well in her normal waters?
Lets have a look at that.

With that single large sail SCAMP won't heave to in the conventional sense, they “Park” (Howard coined that apt phrase). That’s broadside on, and they will sit there happily as long as you want, not going anywhere. SCAMP's are safe “parked” in waves up to about a meters and a half high. That’s close to five feet. Big wave for a little boat and very few small boats will ever be out on the water in those conditions.

Where Howard is going there can be waves up to ten times that high. ( that’s on a good day) The boat has to be able to sit hove to head to wind and, the single big sail wont do that.

Sail Reduction-
We normally put three lines of reefing points onto a SCAMP sail, if the wind is such that there is still too much sail up when on the last reef, its pull the sail right down and sit in the bottom of the boat to wait out the squall. But where Southern Cross is going ,control in sustained extremely high winds is imperative and the single big sail doesn’t give the choices in sail reduction that are needed. IN addition hoisting and striking the single lug sail in extreme or gusty conditions could prove problematic for Howard.

Damage-
With one big sail the loads on that sail and its systems are high, SCAMP has extraordinary stability for a small boat but the loads on the rig are higher than you’d expect. Any failure leaves the boat drifting with little chance of improvising a jury rig, and Southern Cross is going where no small boat has ever been before ( I tried to work a Star Trek quote in there but that has to be near enough), and there is no chance of support or repair, so there has to be a lot of redundancy in the setup. The ability to create a rig out of the wreckage should she be rolled and dismasted is beyond important, it may be the only answer in a life or death scenario.

So with all of this and a few other criteria in mind I set out to draw the rig that Howard called for and that would be ‘fit for purpose”.

The gaff yawl is a powerful rig-
It is not particularly close winded but it generates a lot of drive for a given heeling force. In simple terms, that’s more drive for the amount of stability that the boat has. In heavy weather few boats will sail close to the wind anyway, and small boats more so than big ones so I drew a rig that would produce the most thrust at the wind angle that will be practical in those conditions.

A gaff mainsail means a relatively short mast, strong, easy to manage should it need to be pulled out for work, with low windage and light in weight.

With three sails, reef points on the main and the ability to change jibs there are many different combinations available. Dropping the mizzen and main for example will work when reaching or running before a squall, the small jib being easy to control at any angle to the wind.

When sailing across or upwind the main can be reefed, reefed several times until its time to drop it completely, and with jib and mizzen the boat is still balanced, easy to control and able to heave to if needed.

The Mizzen Sail
In spite of what some write about mizzens that little sail is really useful, it enables the boat to be hove to head to wind, can be used to manage the weather helm enabling the boat to self steer, a huge help on long days, and remember, summertime in the deep south means that there can be daylight for 20 hours. The ability to let the boat sail herself is a real help to the singlehanded skipper wanting to rest, navigate, eat or make repairs under way.

With the jib on a roller furler, that sail can be “disappeared” when needed (down and all the way back into the cockpit until needed), and a bigger drifter set flying, all without leaving the safety of the cockpit. There are days of calm weather in the region and Howard’s strategy is to sail as quickly as possible to take advantage of these breaks. Southern Cross can set a lot of sail in those conditions.

Staying-
Now here’s where one of the big differences appear. The mainmast is not stayed in the normal sense, in fact it does not need stays at all. When capsized, or overpowered running off downwind, the mainsail can be pinned against the stays, in the former case that makes it very difficult to manage when righting as it will try and drive the boat forward or capsize her again as it comes up. In conventional boats its necessary to swim the boat around head to wind to prevent this, but in these cold waters, and in the sort of conditions that might capsize this little ship that’s not a good thing. Should Howard capsize and chances are he may and more than once time will be of the essence. He has to my knowledge tested and learned from some 60 SCAMP capsizes both solo and with crew in teaching and demonstrations. Howard was also a key player in the initial capsize tests conducted on the prototype SCAMP #1. He knows the boat both upright, turtled and on her side likely better than anyone else. He and I have had the opportunity to really understand the mechanics of avoiding capsize and how to execute fast righting and re-entry should it happen.

With the free standing mast, the sail can swing downwind wherever the boat lies relative to the wind and with the main luffed, the mizzen and job sheets free, she will lie quietly.

Going downwind in a heavy squall can be dangerous, and believe me this area is prone to them, walls of spray hundreds of metres high, appearing out of nowhere, coming at you at 60 knots is not uncommon!

The ability to let the main “flag” forward is a real help, round the boat up to about 45 deg off dead downwind, let the running shroud on that side go and dump the mainsheet then point her back downwind again and the main will swing around fully depowered off the bow.

With the jib rolled up or fully struck and the mizzen also swung around its unstayed mast the boat is unpowered, just being pushed along at a controlled rate by the windage of her hull and spars, but is still able to be brought under sail in an instant to clear a lee shore or sail into a confined space.

The mainmast is supported by a running shroud on each side. It’s strong enough to stand unstayed, but the inevitable flex affects the luff tension on the jib, so she has the “running shrouds” there to control that. An aditional benefit of those is to facilitate a jury rig should that be needed.

Damage Again
In case of a broken mast, the main boom is long enough to make a replacement, the mizzen mast is long enough and with the jib, and the running shrouds to hold it up its tall enough to allow the reefed main with its gaff to be set as a loose footed lugsail which will power the boat sufficiently to make some progress.

Again, sailing along the Pacific coast south of the Straights of Magellan is extreme sailing and plain risky, there is little or no chance of assistance should anything go wrong. The skipper has to be able to fix, or rejig the rig in case of breakage minor or major so the rig which Howard has developed has much redundancy built in. I was honoured to have him send me his version of the rig asking that I examine it, refine it and finalize it. We can’t plan for every eventuality, but have done our best to anticipate what the brave little ship will meet, and are confident in her abilities.

[morfeo]

Es lo bueno de la construcción para cliente o de la autoconstruccion. Se diseña para tu plan de navegación o facultad física.

Astillero pequeño local, ese debería ser el camino.

Saludos

[X TUTATIS]

Originalmente publicado por morfeo

Es lo bueno de la construcción para cliente o de la autoconstruccion.
Se diseña para tu plan de navegación o facultad física.
Astillero pequeño local, ese debería ser el camino

Totalmente de acuerdo, pero con la obsesion por globalizarlo todo.......

Un buen astillero cercano y proximo que escuche tus necesidades que se adapte a tus gustos y que en caso de problema lo tengas ahi......

No tiene precio

[U25pies]

Funcionalidad, funcionalidad, funcionalidad

con los trajes secos actuales estos aventureros incluso pueden salir vivos;
pero me deja pasmao la serenidad y determinación mental además de la forma física de este tipo de aventureros minimalistas
(por otro lado de los minimalistas no entiendo cómo encajan toda la carga y todo los chismes, cuando leo por ejemplo la enorme lista de lo que llevaba Robert Manry en su diminuto botecito no me lo explico)

veamos algunas cosas de este bicho de 12 pies de eslora

aparejo de yola, mayor con cangreja y botalón

este es un aparejo realmente marinero: funciona

es un velero que funciona

viento a favor

-hay una mayor de forma adecuada para navegar a favor del viento (de ahí la neocangreja de los minitransat)
-la mayor con cangreja es muy fácil de arriar, siempre baja
-y se equilibra con la vela de proa en un botalón y cazada al centro, y el velero navega solo, Joshua Slocum cuenta que estuvo algo así como 22 días sin tocar el timón sólo ajustando la vela de proa: se pone el viento "a dos cuartas" de la popa, unos 22 grados, la mayor completamente abierta y la vela de proa cazada al centro y los veleros del siglo XVIII y XIX navegaban solos a favor del viento, los minitransat necesitan carísimos pilotos NKE con giróscopo)

ceñida

con trapo a popa se consigue un equilibrio aero-nautico, un Equilibrio estable como el de un avión de pasajeros, el timón del velero es el timón de profundidad del avión: el Equilibrio ocurre a popa del centro de gravedad

capear

se baja el foque y la Mayor ... y con la mesana que no llaman mesana (mizzen) sino jigger cazada al centro el velero aguanta proa a las Olas ... dejando tiempo para si la cosa va a peor pasar a modo supervivencia: lanzar un paracaídas como los que usan los botes de remo oceánico (lleva paracaídas de la marca para-tech, pero para este tamaño pienso que valdría un saco para escombros)

legados a este punto el aventurero baja toda la jarcia y se mete debajo de un toldo-tienda (la cabinita no es tal, sino una burbuja de aire para asegurar el adrizamiento)

lleva dos toldos-tienda, uno digamos habitable con una estufa de leña (!) y este para supervivencia: